I’ve been wanting to put down some thoughts on this subject for a couple reasons, and now seems like the right time.
I had the opportunity sometime in the past couple months (so as to not point any obvious fingers) to attend a class at a school. It might have been my school, or yours, or anyone’s. Where it was isn’t the point.
During sparring, a higher belt was rolling around with complete disregard for anyone else. Most schools I’ve been to have the unspoken rule that when you bump into a higher belt during sparring, YOU move. I get that. But this was bordering on ridiculous. On a fairly crowded mat, this guy was all over the place, feet flying as he passed his opponent’s guard, heads knocking as he threw people around, etc. You get the idea. Not only that, but he was going HARD. With everyone. To the point where people were yelling out as they tapped, because he was hurting them. Lower belts. Even the same belt as him.
There was obviously a pretty high reverence for this guy in the gym – he was ridiculously talented, that was apparent. And he definitely had the skill and the control. Like I said, he was a higher belt. So why, then? I just didn’t get it, and I was really disappointed, to be honest, in his professional disregard for the welfare of anyone else on the mat.
Having been the guy that gets the accidental neighboring knee to the face, and caught many a flying foot during sparring, I have to say that a lot of that is avoidable if you display any respect at all for the other people on the mat. Not completely. I got it. But mostly.
Which brings me to my point. There have been a host of recent discussions on sparring speed. I think the most recent was a couple weeks ago with a posting that Allie put up, and it developed a lot with some of the additional comments.
There were some fiery opinions put out there, mine included, and I wanted to lay out why I think and do what I do.
Thomas commented (at bottom) very frankly, and put his thoughts out there – which I appreciate – about how at his school, part of sparring is learning at what point you should tap. I agree. He conceded that there is a responsibility on both parts to control the safety of reaching that point, but that’s he’s not afraid to pop – not injure permanently – an elbow to prove a point.
And more importantly, he’s saying that this mindset is encouraged. From that perspective, he’s saying I’m not going to learn how far I can bend that arm until it goes just a little too far.
It goes further than that, though. Apparently, there is a “tradition” of sorts at the school that newcomers receive “the welcome,” which involves getting tooled by a bunch of people on your first visit, to show you that jiu jitsu is as badass as you think it is, and you are not as badass as you think you are. From what he said, it stems from the perception that initially, his school was viewed as lesser, and so people from other schools would come over and intentionally try to tap people from there, viewing it as some sort of victory.
I am not a black belt. I am not an instructor. I do not own my own jiu jitsu school. And I have not attended classes at Thomas’ school. I can only speak from my own limited experience, which is about two years of doing this sport with some of the most professional people I have ever met.
And so, on that note, I have a series of points I’d like to make.
First, I have never experienced ANYTHING from ANY school I’ve attended that even remotely resembles “the welcome.”
Maybe that’s because I don’t go to schools to tap people. I go there to learn. I go in respectfully, and humbly, and I don’t try to prove how awesome I am to anyone. In return, I have been embraced as part of each school, because I am part of the larger jiu jitsu family.
Call me crazy. I’ve posted several times on the quality of people I’ve met, and the family atmosphere everywhere I’ve been.
I don’t know what the atmosphere in that region of the country is, but last time I checked, this wasn’t 1950s Brazil, and the jiu jitsu guys weren’t having to defend their turf against the Luta Livre guys any more.
An instructor has a responsibility to his students. Absolutely. Unequivocally. And if a visiting or new student is going rough, or deliberately embarrassing people with no training value to it, then I think the instructor should resolve the problem professionally, not by sending his goon squad after the guy. ESPECIALLY pre-emptively.
But honestly, I think it goes back to a mentality we all have about sparring.
Sparring, to me, is not about winning. That’s how I was brought up in this sport, I’m proud to say. And it was a hard lesson to learn, I’ll admit. We’re all – mostly – competitive, and sparring represents the closest approximation to a fight or a match. So you CAN get the FEEL of winning in a sparring match. I’ve mentioned before that when I started – like many of us – I was in it to win it. All the time. And I was wrong. In fact, rereading that post, I say it over and over.
But that’s not the point. Sparring is about trying your skills. Maybe you’re working one technique, or one concept, or just seeing how things go. But I can count on one hand the number of times in two years where I can say I went fully 100% in sparring, and then it was agreed on by both parties. I spar to LEARN, not to win. I want to see what you’re going to do, and come up with something that I can do in return.
I don’t need to pop your elbow to prove that I can do it. In fact, I think it shows MORE dominance if I get you all the way there, and then let you go when you don’t tap. I’m unclear as to how that benefits either one of us if I take it an inch further to get you to tap, outside of padding my ego. Thanks but no thanks. I’m confident enough.
And if you want to come over to my school and tap me and then brag about it? Go right ahead. Tap me 50 times in a minute. Good for you. I’ll tap. Happily. And take a picture with you afterward. I’ll concede the fight before we even start. Because when it comes down to it, let’s see how that goes for you at the Pans next year. Or Mundials. Or whatever tournament you choose. Maybe you win. Maybe I win. I’m not overly confident in my abilities. But until we do it in a tournament, we’ll never know, either of us. Because that’s where you’ll see everything I’ve got. Not in sparring. I’m not sparring you to “win.” I’m sparring you to learn. And if you tap me 50 times, I’ve learned a hell of a lot.
And back to the point about the higher belt in the beginning. We all aspire to those higher belts. I respect and admire those people for having the strength, perseverance, and technique to attain such a high level in this demanding sport. Once you get to a certain level, I’m not sure what you’re proving by giving a painful beatdown to a lower belt. I’m not saying don’t trounce me – absolutely kick my ass. Please. I do learn from that. But you don’t need to hurt me to prove something. Believe me, I get it. I know exactly what you’re doing when you toy with me, or give me a position that I wouldn’t have been able to get. I KNOW how good you are. That’s WHY I want to roll with you.
But when I see a guy like that hurting people, including others of the same belt… I don’t want to roll with him. And I don’t think anyone else does, either.
I’m not really sure how to end this post. Like I said, I’ve had these thoughts bouncing around my brain for awhile now, and it feels good to get them down. Obviously, there are some VERY different opinions out there, and I’m absolutely open to debate, and even to changing my mind with some good justification. All I know is what I know.
For the record, I want to say that I’m not trying to single anyone out – school OR individual. I bring up Thomas’s name appreciatively because he has the pride to attach his name to his opinions, and I thank him for that. I think this is an important debate, and I respect and applaud his input.
Comments welcome, encouraged, and appreciated.
UPDATE: Allie has since posted an absolutely brilliant explanation of the whole "welcome" business. If you made it all the way through this, you NEED to read her post.
Very well put. I've been mulling this same issue over in my head since reading Thomas and Allie's comments. I think you're right, Thomas is to be commended for putting himself out there and expressing his opinion without hesitancy. I know there's probably lots of other people in the world who think the same things.
ReplyDeleteI think it would be noticeable, to me anyway, the difference between a "welcome" like that and just routine trouncing at another school. And I can honestly say that a trouncing would have me coming back for more, because it's so educational (as you ably expressed)... whereas it would be a cold day in hell before I'd return to (or even keep rolling in) a school that felt the need to attack me hard and fast and submit me to "teach me a lesson."
So not what I am about. So not what jiu jitsu is about. Often, the difference between an MMA school and a purely jiu jitsu school is just this.
It's right for some, not right for others. Not what I want, for me.
Great post.
ReplyDeleteI received 'the Welcome' at my very first BJJ lesson 7 years ago. Back then I didn't know any better but imagine, a 58kilo (120Lb) small guy like me getting facebarred and stacked to hell on their very first lesson?
Luckily as I say I didn't any better and my deluded budo spirit saw it as a challenge and I decided to continue the sport (but change clubs LOL!)
I don't think the modern progressive academy can afford to do that to newcomers these days.
So Boooooo to the bully boy higher belt and shame on him.
I think I have received "The Welcome" a few times when visiting other schools. When sparring I go fairly easy because (1) I don't want to hurt my sparring partner (2) I don't want to hurt myself. On occasion, some of the younger gnarly dudes take the easyness of my sparring for weakness and are compelled to attempt to school me. Well, what I do is up my game abit and take care of the problem. Then we are once again friends. I believe sparring is about learning, testing yourself and just having fun.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteBeing that is my school being called into question so to speak, I obviously have an opinion on the matter. (I going to assume everyone has read Thomas's post, so if you didn't what I am about to post may seem random, though I'll reiterate some of his points.
ReplyDeleteYou are about to read way more about my school then I am sure you care to know. lol So, read on at your own risk. Also know that all my information is secondhand. I wasn't part of the school in the beginning, but I have heard all about its history.. many times.
To elaborate on what Thomas said, my school started in a rec center. Mostly due to the fact that when Fabio first came to Florida, he began teaching with this guy, we will call him John. (I was going to post a link to his web site, but I decided against it. I will let him remain namless for now.) If you look hard enough, I think you can actually see ‘BS” stamped across his forehead. He makes everyone call him 'Master' and he will sell you a black belt and signed certificate for the very fair price of $2,500.00. John and his partner signed each other’s black belt certificates for crying out loud. Once Fabio caught on to this, he parted ways with them and started his own school.
The relationship ended on bad terms, and being that Fabio made it know that he thought what they were doing is bull, it became, and still is, a huge bone of contention between our school and the BS black belt schools in our area.
So, when our school began in a lowly rec center, it had a target on its back. Everyone wanted to try and prove that Fabio didn't know what he was talking about, and prove the 'legitimacy' of their own schools by owning people in our school.
People regularly came in, claiming to know nothing about jiu-jitsu, and the second they touched hands on the mat, they were going for submissions, and just general douche-baggery.
Then when it turned out that Fabio did know what the heck he was talking about, and our team started to kick ass and take names, people started to brag about when they did catch one of our guys.
(cont...)
Our school now has grown from its humble beginnings in a rec center, and proven itself time and time again. On the mat and in competition. Fabio now owns and runs two successful schools, and they just so happen to be the only schools in our area that can stay open without the use of afterschool programs.
ReplyDeleteFabio won gold at the Pan Ams earlier this year, and one of our secondary instructor's won gold in his division and in brown belt absolute. Not that anyone is saying otherwise, but Fabio IS legit, as is our school. Not only that, but Fabio is an outstanding human being, and I love the guy like family, as well as the rest of my team. I am immensely proud of my school, my instructors and being part of the Fabio Novaes BJJ team. They are some of the best people I have had the good fortunate of meeting and training with.
So anyway, (sorry about my little rant.) as far as the welcome goes, it was explained to me like this…. I posted and emailed about it a few times in the past few days, so I’ll just cut and paste it together.
It was explained to me that when you first roll with someone you show them what BJJ is. You show them what they can learn if they too dedicate themselves and train hard. They also get a pretty good lesson in tapping. Which is also important. To learn jiu-jitsu, you must learn to tap, and if you are so prideful that tapping is going to be an issue for you, you learn really quickly that BJJ isn't for you. And if someone shows up for a second class, then you know you have someone who will probably go the distance.
It really isn't a bunch of purple belts ripping arms off of newbies. They are, for the most part calm, and meticulous in their submissions. I've seen new guys try and throw or slam some of our smaller guys around... at which point it can become a beat down, but VERY seldom are joints popped as a result. I mean, accidents happen here and there, but I really honestly believe 99% of all the injuries that happen inside my school are accidental.
And since sometimes text is hard to translate, I am, in no way mad, upset or offended. Nor do I think anyone is point fingers, calling names, or mocking my school. I enjoy reading other people’s thoughts on the matter, and I find the differences in schools interesting. So, please feel free to tell me what you think and I have thick skin so don’t worry about offending me.
Steph,
ReplyDeleteFANTASTIC response. And you're right. I was not implying in any way anything negative about your school. As I said, different people have different ways of doing business, and I'll be the first to tell you I'm the least qualified person to judge how someone runs a *successful* business. I am absolutely, undeniably confident that Fabio runs a great school - as evidenced by you and Allie, if for no other reason - and is a great guy as well, which you've both said on numerous occasions.
Honestly, my post started out with the initial incident I described, which was running through my brain, and when I started writing, it seemed to make sense to include some thoughts from Allie's post and the ensuing conversation.
You've defended your school and your point of view well. I hope I wasn't coming across as angry or upset either. I think this is a really interesting conversation, and I appreciate everyone's input.
No, you didn't seem upset or condescending in any way. I appreciate your post, and thoughts on the matter. I think it is an interesting subject which is why I went on, and on.... and on about it. lol And I am looking forward to what other people have to say about it as well.
ReplyDeleteHey Dev. I thought long and hard on how to respond and how to explain all of this and decided it was best just to do a blog about it. Check it out if you want:
ReplyDeletehttp://clearbelt.blogspot.com/2010/07/big-topic.html
As always, I am glad to have you as a friend and respect your thoughts highly!! Thanks for all the advice and encouragement you've given me throughout the last year!! :)
I think that BJJ comes by its bipolar nature honestly. Though evolving, BJJ is still a baby MA and has the unfortunate (fortunate, to some circles?,close association with cage fighting, Rio beach challenges, and the "Gracie Garage" matches. So a lot of times there is more emphasis on the "martial", rather than the "art" part. Also, the majority of practitioners are males between the ages of 18-28 (testosterone-driven UFC fans), which doesn't help the cause either.
ReplyDeleteI personally consider Roy Dean to be on the forefront of trying to bring "budo" back to BJJ (Not a plug - I am no where near his training facility). As a matter of fact, I was reading a thread over at sherdog the other day about Mr. Dean and his teaching style and subsequently wrote a post about it (This IS a plug, but there is more room there than there is here to reply http://apinatafilledwithspam.wordpress.com/2010/07/26/schools-of-thought/).
Great conversation guys and gals...keep it up!
I'm loving this post, Dev. And to be honest, I completely agree with everything you have presented. I responded to this in Allies blog, but thought I would follow it up here as well.
ReplyDeleteI phrased my comment about popping elbows very poorly, and wound up construing a perception that is quite opposite what I believe and practice. I do not feel, under any circumstances, that one should deliberately injure their training partner. However, I think that preventing injury is the responsibility of both parties and, ultimately, you are responsible for your own safety.
The comment that kicked much of this off was me saying that the first time I roll, I view it as a challenge - if I were to meet this guy in a fight, could I handle myself? How quickly could I end the fight? I then said something the effect of "Go hard. Tap him. If he refuses to tap, pop his elbow." Which was a little bit overzealous. My point, which had some background conversations not included in the blog, was more along the lines that I am going to apply the sub to tap you, which is different with just rolling like we do with 90% of our rolls. As I apply a submission, I expect you to communicate when it reaches the stopping point by tapping. Sometimes, I can determine that point by the resistance in your arm whether you tap or not. But, if you refuse to tap and get hurt, I am not going to feel guilty for it. If I hold your arm and you start yanking and pulling and wind up popping it yourself, I am not going to feel guilty for that either. At no point am I going to TRY to hurt you, but if you get hurt because of your own ego... well, that is on you, not on me. Hopefully, you learn not to do that early on in your BJJ career.
Anyhow, I hope that clarifies what was in my head but failed to make it into written form. Injuring your training partners is, in my opinion, idiotic and helps nobody. But please, for the love of joints, tap before someone inadvertently breaks something.
edit: "...which is different THAN just rolling like we do with 90% of our rolls..."
ReplyDeleteThomas,
ReplyDeleteI really appreciate you putting yourself out there, and I respect where you're coming from. My suggestion, though, is to take a look back at what you wrote on Allie's post, and then read Ben's description. They are VASTLY different concepts, and I think you would be well served to start thinking in those terms. Keep training - hard - but always keep the welfare of your partner in mind. And good luck!